Our Forum…

 
You must be logged in to post Login Register


Register? | Lost Your Password?

Search Forums:


 






Minimum search word length is 3 characters – Maximum search word length is 84 characters
Wildcard Usage:
*  matches any number of characters    %  matches exactly one character

Debate on Lorelei: Displaced Siren or Malevolent Potamidae?

Post
Member

Macadamia_Nut

posts 8

10:59 am January 5, 2012

If you are from Europe, you should have heard of Lorelei. Lorelei is the name of a rock on the eastern bank of the Rhine near St. Goarshausen in Germany. It got its name from the maiden who was said to have sat there, combing her long wet golden hair while leading ships to their doom onto the rock. She used to sing–and beautifully, too!

Picture of the rock, Lorelei
This is the rock, Lorelei This is a statue of the faerie, Lorelei


This is a statue of the faerie, Lorelei.

 

Now, here is my debate: What kind of faerie is Lorelei?

According to most websites, she is considered a Siren due to her behaviour. That would be made completely justifiable, excpet for the fact that she lives on the Rhine. The Rhine, as we should all know, is a river. Rivers, as we should also know, are made up of freshwater.

Now, reading into the history and nature of Sirens, Pierre Dubois states in his Great Encyclopedia of Faeries that Sirens are water elementals that reside in the Ocean or in seas. Oceans and seas are SALTwater. Like the nature of the boitic elements of water, I can hypothesize that, therefore, Sirens cannot–or SHOULD not–be able to live in freshwater. Hence, our dear Lorelei cannot be classified as a Siren, dispite her Siren-like behaviour.

In regards to the kinds of faeries that reside in freshwater, Lorelei would be classified as a Naiad; a Potamidae to be specific. Although faeries of Greek discovery, I can assume that naiads and other faeries are not restricted to the lands that write about them. Upon the assumption that Lorelei is a Potamidae, our issue is in that she not a benevolent creature, dispite what Potamides are written out to be like.

So, here is my question to you, forum:

What do you think Lorelei is? You don't have to take a specific side, I would just like to hear your opinions, whether you agree with one arguement or the other–or whether you think she is something else entirely.

Moderator

slave_to_valor

St. Louis, MO

posts 112

7:48 am January 9, 2012

There are fresh water Sirens, and mermaids aren't as beautiful or as benevolent as many stories make them out to be. There's also such thing as a Kelpie, which sometimes takes human form and doesn't always lead unfortunate souls to their doom in horse shape, and these can be either sea water or fresh water.

 

Also, just because mythology claims one thing, does not make it correct. Much of mythology has been watered down, dissolved, forgotten or changed by Christian scholars and writers over the years. Some supernaturals were turned from benevolent spirits into demons because anything that wasn't an angel was obviously a demon, and sometimes creatures that were malevolent were changed into something a little less frightening in order to please the minds of children. Consider this: the original Sleeping Beauty fairy tale consisted of the Princess Rosebud NOT being woken from her death-like slumber by a kiss, but of her eventual prince taking advantage of her slumbering state in an inappropriate manner and then riding away back to his own kingdom once he was finished. What woke her was NOT a sweet kiss from her "true-love", but her suckling babes, and as she's WANDERING confused and alone, DISORIENTED from being asleep for over a thousand years, she happens upon her children's father's kingdom and we (the readers) discover that Prince Charming is ALREADY married to another woman, whom is EXTREMELY upset that her husband would dare turn from her AND once she finds the other woman in her kingdom, tries to do away with her. She's eventually murdered accidentally by her husband's one-night-stand and him and Rosebud get married in the end.

 

This is a MUCH different version than the one that everyone knows and many people consider as the mainstream. Disney animated the Brothers' Grimm adaptation, not the original tale that was spread word of mouth. So, because we know that this happens with fairy tales, imagine how it goes with faerie mythology. "I don't want my daughter/son to be afraid of doing this thing… so I'll change the story a bit, so that it's something else…" or "I WANT my son/daughter to be afraid of this thing, so I'll change the story a bit so that it does THIS,".

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb365/Elendae_Nersil/FingonErenion1copy.jpg

Member

Macadamia_Nut

posts 8

1:16 pm January 9, 2012

I know the true story of Sleeping Beauty, I read about those as well. Although not really relevant to the post topic, I appreciate the reminder to take all the info I gain with a grain of salt. It's true, faerie studies are not like biology or chemistry where you can test repeatedly and conduct studies in controlled spaces.

Anyway, where is it recorded about freshwater Sirens? I'm not talking mermaids here, mind you, I'm talking about Sirens. I'm basing these claims from written accounts in things written both BC and AD.

Moderator

slave_to_valor

St. Louis, MO

posts 112

3:07 am January 10, 2012

Technically, a Mermaid IS a Siren and functions in much of the same manner, sitting up on rocks and singing men to their doom or running their ships aground if they're not paying attention to what they're doing. Mermaids have also been known to crush the life out of their victims, or drag them underneath the water, drowning them and in some cases consuming them, depending upon the legend and area in which is arose. Mermaids have also been known to drag their prey beneath the ocean and take them to their castles beneath the water in order to make them into slaves, servants or husbands, depending. The very first mermaid account was given in Assyria circa 1000BC, and because Mermaids were so much LIKE Greek Sirens, the two myths were combined. Therefore, a Mermaid IS a Siren.

 

Mermaids have the capabilities of swimming up into freshwater rivers and streams into freshwater lakes and live there for ages, or in such a case as exists in the Netherlands in a tale called The Legend of the Mermaid of Edam, there was a severe storm and a mermaid was washed into Lake Purmer through a hole in the dyke. "She did not wear clothes, but she was covered with seaweed and moss. She searched for food at the bottom of the lake." Which, sounds a great deal like the statue and story that was posed in your first post. Therefore, Lorelei could have been a mermaid that accidentally/on purpose managed to get herself stuck in the Rhine, and was unable to get herself out.

 

But, Lorelei honestly sounds more like a Morgen. Morgens are FRESH water spirits that predominantly exist in Welsh and Breton myths. They drown men, sing ships ashore or to their doom and "are eternally young, and like sirens they sit in the water and comb their hair seductively". There are legends of Morgens that exist from Glastonbury all the way to Somerset, and they have been known to be blamed for heavy flooding and destroying of crops in many old village tales. So, Lorelei sounds more like a Morgen than she sounds like a Mermaid OR a Siren.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb365/Elendae_Nersil/FingonErenion1copy.jpg

Member

rush

posts 35

7:56 am January 10, 2012

What about an Undine, I heard they use seductive song as well. And this next bit is just a theory but isnt the faery realm like our world, wouldnt the fairys governed by water be tempted to cross breed as us humans do?  Are there strict clan or kin laws relating to marraige and kids. When love and passion strike would the color of your tail the flavour of your water or the country you swam from be of any concern. Allso theres the conciousness of the area where the statue was biult, she was through the veil enough times to have a statue made out of her, did there belief in her, and what they said she was bring forward her vision on the rock? Is there a more detailed story of her the answere could be there. My personal conclusion is when she's sitting on the rock singing her seductive haunting melody she's a siren, when she dives back in the water she's a mermaid.

Moderator

stellar

posts 372

11:37 am January 10, 2012

@rush I'm pretty sure Ashy just explained how a mermaid IS a siren.

I personally don't like mermaids/sirens, they sound like they can't be trusted and almost always have malicious intentions. If I were on a ship and saw a beautiful mermaid I would probably throw a tomato at her. Just sayin'.

By the way, are there mermen?


Being too full of sleep to understand
                              How far the unknown transcends the what we know

Member

rush

posts 35

4:59 pm January 10, 2012

Most definitely, in greek mythology theres king Poseidon in roman he's king Neptune, in greek the queen of the sea is Amphitrite or in roman queen Salacia. I know Mr E (my daughter calles him Mystery, makes sense) mentioned the Merpeople as neutral allies in the seelie war. A lot of ancient artwork depicts them as buffed up bearded long hair nomads of the sea, carrying warlike tritons, I would say meaner than the mermaids. Its probably a guy thing but I wouldnt mind a wrestle with a mermaid, the mean ones could be  under the order of the king forsaking there true nature for the sake of the saving of the sea.It must be such a sweet melody, a sound of enchantment from deep within the mermaids heart to be able to corrupt a mans senses to madness, but then doesnt all faery music have this power? I've read stories of mermaids shape shifting and forming human legs and having human lovers living in dwellings along the sea. Never Mermen though. Im sure if alliances are being made in the fairy realm, then we humans can find a way into there world to communicate a message of peace.

Admin

Natalie Lynn

posts 1269

8:40 pm January 10, 2012

Here is Mr E's quick take on this discussion:

The separation of those different species that were mentioned would be similar to the separation between a horse, donkey, or even a zebra.   Sirens, even though they appear the same as a mermaid from the waist up, have a significantly different tail. The siren's tail is a double tail like the Starbucks logo and the mermaid has only one, you know, what people normally think of when they hear the word mermaid.

Sirens are more aggressive than the average mer.  They don't like humans and they sometimes draw them away from their territory (to their death) by using their siren voice.  Truthfully, mermaids aren't necessarily human-friendly either and can go either way but with sirens their interaction with humans is almost always negative. 

Both mermaids and sirens tend to mainly inhabit salt water but mer (mermen and mermaids) can sometimes be found in fresh water while Sirens are only found in saltwater.  For instance, there are mer in at least one of the Great Lakes, Lake Michigan (near us).  The only reason they can be there is if there is a waterway that is somehow connected to the ocean in order to travel from one place to the other.  With Lake Michigan for example, they travel from the ocean, into the Gulf of Mexico, into the Mississippi River and from there, through the Illinois Waterway, into Lake Michigan.

Now, as to the  Lorelei, the Rhine River empties into the North Sea at the Netherlands so it is entirely possible that she could be a mermaid.  (Note: he's not that familiar with the legend about her but he was wondering if the hair combing was just incidental instead of done on purpose to lure humans.)

There is a smaller, semi-aquatic, freshwater being similar to the mer which is known as a Gherring but they wouldn't be confused with mer because of their size.  These beings have tails like mermaids, are about 5-7" tall and also have wings similar to pixies.

Both male and female mer tend to have a similar attitude towards humans. Mermen are more protective and aren't as interactively friendly to humans but are as friendly to elves as the mermaids are.  They are definitely neutral in the war between the Eight and (what he refers to as) the Unseelie.  They often flip flop from one side to the other–no pun intended. :)  Once you start talking to them, they will say "oh, yeah, you're right," and then they will go to the other side and say the exact same thing.  They are definitely conflicted and can see both sides. 

Member

DakotaRisingMoon

Windsor, ON, Canada

posts 831

9:24 pm January 10, 2012

Macadamia_Nut said:

If you are from Europe, you should have heard of Lorelei. Lorelei is the name of a rock on the eastern bank of the Rhine near St. Goarshausen in Germany. It got its name from the maiden who was said to have sat there, combing her long wet golden hair while leading ships to their doom onto the rock. She used to sing–and beautifully, too!
 

Picture of the rock, Lorelei
This is the rock, Lorelei This is a statue of the faerie, Lorelei


This is a statue of the faerie, Lorelei.

 

Now, here is my debate: What kind of faerie is Lorelei?

According to most websites, she is considered a Siren due to her behaviour. That would be made completely justifiable, excpet for the fact that she lives on the Rhine. The Rhine, as we should all know, is a river. Rivers, as we should also know, are made up of freshwater.

Now, reading into the history and nature of Sirens, Pierre Dubois states in his Great Encyclopedia of Faeries that Sirens are water elementals that reside in the Ocean or in seas. Oceans and seas are SALTwater. Like the nature of the boitic elements of water, I can hypothesize that, therefore, Sirens cannot–or SHOULD not–be able to live in freshwater. Hence, our dear Lorelei cannot be classified as a Siren, dispite her Siren-like behaviour.

In regards to the kinds of faeries that reside in freshwater, Lorelei would be classified as a Naiad; a Potamidae to be specific. Although faeries of Greek discovery, I can assume that naiads and other faeries are not restricted to the lands that write about them. Upon the assumption that Lorelei is a Potamidae, our issue is in that she not a benevolent creature, dispite what Potamides are written out to be like.

So, here is my question to you, forum:

What do you think Lorelei is? You don't have to take a specific side, I would just like to hear your opinions, whether you agree with one arguement or the other–or whether you think she is something else entirely.

 

There may be such thing as freshwater sirens, although I think it's some other kind of fae, which name I cannot recall…

Also, this is random but..Potamidae is a family of freshwater crabs…I know, it's random, but I find this odd…

Member

momo

posts 59

10:30 am January 18, 2012

I know it's moving off topic but have you heard of the Skinningrove merman?

Member

Alex

Ontario, Canada

posts 15

10:18 pm January 20, 2012

I believe the Sirens began as freshwater nymphs, however. As the story goes, they, along with the nymph Kyane, were good friends of Kore (later Persephone). When Hades abducted Kore and took her to the Underworld, the Sirens didn't try to help her (whereas Kyane did, but failed) and Kore's mother Demeter cursed them to search for her in bird form. They came to reside in the sea and later authors made more mermaid like than birdlike. So it's possible that Lorelei chose not to join her sisters in the sea (if we're going by the Greek myth), thus leaving her a freshwater siren. On the other hand, she would not be the first Naiad – and probably not the first Potameide – to drown people. Think Hylas and the nymphs (they were Pegaiai). Good question! Either is possible.


About the Real Fairies Forum

Forum Timezone: UTC -4

Most Users Ever Online: 47

Currently Online: Athidal
15 Guests

Currently Browsing this Topic:
1 Guest

Forum Stats:

Groups: 3
Forums: 17
Topics: 2898
Posts: 25630

Membership:

There are 1122 Members
There has been 1 Guest

There are 2 Admins
There are 6 Moderators

Top Posters:

Lisa A.- Grey Eyes – 2506
Bluefirephoenix – 891
DakotaRisingMoon – 831
ta – 702
SirZachary – 695
Faecat – 673

Recent New Members: Cyra Ann, michelleMOON, sonic-skywalker, Azaynowen, Alexandra, Saoirse, cbiird, ElvenWriter, Kyriean, Catie, WindDancer, ashtin11

Administrators: Natalie Lynn (1269 Posts), Sally (0 Posts)

Moderators: Heaven's Divinity (937 Posts), stellar (372 Posts), slave_to_valor (112 Posts), Inouin (54 Posts), Susan/Mr E (35 Posts), Katie Hajjar (14 Posts)



 
Be Sociable, Share!